Curse

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

When are Luxon monks going to realise they better keep their walking canons and warrior npc's alive instead of Rayway the team towards defeat?

DreamRunner · May 24, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamuril elansar

Turtles don't die either when the luxons have 2 decent monks.

Oh please, a ranger can put a turtle stationary by just attacking it or a necro with weaken knee's.

upier · May 24, 2009, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

When are Luxon monks going to realise they better keep their walking canons and warrior npc's alive instead of Rayway the team towards defeat?

This one is really a bit iffy.
As I have said in the other thread, the problem is that the random format REALLY hurts the Luxons, while the Kurzicks really do not suffer that much under it.
The Luxon side IS the offensive side. So running defensive characters isn't really advised. Now, get one or two healing/protting guys and it's going to really help. Get more - and all of a sudden you start lacking damage.

So against normal Kurzick teams - a RoJ monky with smite hex/condition, RoD and something like Patient Spirit is probably going to be a much safer option then a full on defensive guy. (What is NOT good though are stuff like Spear of Light/Smite or similar crap. That's just bad.) You are able to provide damage, some healing that no-one really relied on - so you are able to do your job even if you end up getting paired with more monks.
Of course when going against the problematic teams - multiple Kurzick monks - you've lost either way.

Luxons rely on luck way more then Kurzicks.
And that's not good.

ruemere · May 24, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

As a long time player of Luxon's side at Fort Aspenwood, I'd like to say that this map offers a lot of fun provided that Luxon's remember to do several key things:

1. Keep turtles alive. Jade Quarry */P turtle speedsters are fine, too.

2. The key to winning are AOE attacks on Luxon's side. Any time Kurzicks attempt to defend, they are forced to operate in closed space (gates, corridors, near important NPCs). Putting a degeneration or damage over time effect there goes a long way toward lessening Kurzick's effectiveness.

3. Put pressure on Kurzick's side by using effective interrupts. This map really makes Mesmer shine - you see the fast moving player dot's, it's easy to determine whom to interrupt first. And Cry of Frustration is your friend.

4. MMs. To confuse the hell out of opponents, to spread NPCs attention among targets

5. When you get beyond last gate, put area hexes as much as you can. Use the bodies of your comrades to build Wells which put pressure on Monks (Well of Suffering, Lingering Curse). Chaos Storm is the key to deny energy (remember, you're going to fight here of several minutes - the faster your opponent's energy depletes, the easier for you to win). Burning also works wonders.
High body count is your friend. Use each body to put a nice Well into place... just remember to use those Well spells which put pressure on opponents.

6. Gatekeepers are first priority. Getting turtle to the gate to start AOE inside, is a much needed 2nd.

7. When you start hitting Gunther, look for Gunther's healer first. And kill them. And use Well of Suffering/Burning on anyone who dies nearby.

Regards,
Ruemere

Shadow Slave · May 24, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem of ZQuests is that it brings in a massive amount of players.
This means it brings in bad AND good players.
On both sides.

I completely understand the implication the influx of new players is going to have -

My point was FA has needed some love for a long time now, pretty much all of the issues that are going to come up in this thread have already been discussed, and regardless of whether you can get a few ZCoins from it or not - it's an enjoyable format that has a lot of potential and shouldn't be neglected.

The first 4 tiers of my luxon title came from FA alone - despite the better faction AB yielded at the time, I just played FA because I enjoyed it.

It doesn't deserve an update just because people want a bigger bag to keep their pixels in, so are going there to /load their bad build and lose. (unless you are Kurzick, in which case winning is still completely viable)

There must be other people who play FA just because they enjoy[ed] it, no?

Quote:

I LOVE the use of the word "fun" in your post.

You've lost me.

The issue of Melee being a non-viable option is in that other thread.

~~
Turtles have terrible AI that can easily be manipulated - they require players smart enough to re-send them when they die.

They are also far enough away for this to be annoyingly time consuming if you dont have an IMS - at the same time you're not doing anything else. (i.e. killing things)

Players dedicated to healing the turtlesa re still useless because of the numerous Turtle AI weaknesses and flaws, plus 1/2 Luxon monks means 1/2 less people to kill things....which can rarely be afforded because of the bad players /ease of winning as Kurz.

...now I'm just repeating myself from the other thread again.

upier · May 24, 2009, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

I completely understand the implication the influx of new players is going to have -

My point was FA has needed some love for a long time now, pretty much all of the issues that are going to come up in this thread have already been discussed, and regardless of whether you can get a few ZCoins from it or not - it's an enjoyable format that has a lot of potential and shouldn't be neglected.

The first 4 tiers of my luxon title came from FA alone - despite the better faction AB yielded at the time, I just played FA because I enjoyed it.

It doesn't deserve an update just because people want a bigger bag to keep their pixels in, so are going there to /load their bad build and lose. (unless you are Kurzick, in which case winning is still completely viable)

There must be other people who play FA just because they enjoy[ed] it, no?

The games at Aspy end up being much more enjoyable - despite still being broken - when there is not an Aspy ZQuest.
As a Luxon, one of the best things you can do is pick up the Aspy quest and then wait a few days before going after it.
The ZQuest REALLY showcases everything that does not work there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

You've lost me.

My reply referred to your comment about healing NPCs not being fun.
It's the defensive side. If one does not find this kind of play fun - then there is no need to run it. But be aware that doing so SHOULD cost your your victory.
Perma SF is also "fun" in PvE. But in PvP - the game should be balanced, and if someone does not find that balance to be "fun" ... well then, tough luck!

FengShuiDove · May 24, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

I agree that FA is broken and stupid. I say that out of experience, not just following what people say or I've heard around. And I personally skip Combat Z-Quest on FA day. But still, there are people who enjoy it and play it, and while it might not be as balanced as JQ or as fun as some of the other PvP play modes, it's still there, and it's only one day a week anyway.

Will I ever play it? Nah, but leave it in rotation anyway for those (possibly few) that actually enjoy it.

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This one is really a bit iffy... multiple Kurzick monks - you've lost either way.

Do you guys ever play the opposite side? I lost most of my Kurzick games when we were with more than 2-3 monks in the team. I won most of my luxon games when I and another monk kept our turtle alive and spammed vig. spirit on the warrior npc's. Free knock down is win.

Luxon Ray is easy to counter, especially if they can't keep their turtles alive. So no, Ray is just bad in FA imo. Ruemere's post above is what luxons should be doing.

cybevenom · May 24, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

heck no. let me guess. you are on the side of luxons who can't get their tactics running. FA is fine just the way it is. The kurzicks win some. the kurzick lose some. Bad luck you get thrown in bad teams is no reason to change it

Arkantos · May 24, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

This is achieved by Kurzicks playing poorly.

Or by the Luxons playing good. Most of the time, the Kurzicks do play pretty poorly, the reason they win most of the time is because the Luxons play worse, and because they have the advantage.

It shouldn't be removed from the zquest rotation because lots of the players who participate in FA suck.

Sarevok Thordin · May 24, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

/notsigned

More defy pain tanks LOL.

Zinger314 · May 24, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

ITT: Correlation does, in fact, imply causation.

Aspenwood is broken, it has been broken forever, especially since the Kurzick buff.

Seraphim Angel · May 24, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

No I think FA should be kept in the loop. If I recall you have to win 9 times not 1. With all the noobs on kurzick side this could takes ages.

A monk with 16 Smiting Prayers and RoJ can take out a amber mine with 1 RoJ spell. ONE!! Way to powerful imo.

All these Mesmers on the kurzick side should be bringing Power Block to render all these Luxon nukers and RoJ spammers useless and watch them run away with thier tails between thier legs.

Yes Kurzick do have the advantage I believe and seems the word is out so ALL the noobs are on kurzick side trying to get easy faction. Noobs=FAIL on kurzick side.

makosi · May 24, 2009, 04:23 PM // 16:23

I maxed the Kurz title and I should be working on Luxon now, but I won't join FA from the Luxon end because of the reasons listed above as well as the leeching.

If I go Luxon, I must roll monk to have a decent chance of winning because if there's nobody to heal the turtles then the odds of penetrating the base are next to nil. Then there is the issue of 'healway' on the Kurzick side where a load of Rits and Monks dedicate their time and energy to healing NPCs - namely Gunther and his buddies - thus making Turtles essential for periodically stripping Enchantments.

It's easier to stand as Ranger inside the Fort and stall the turtles while throwing Burning Arrows from miles away, having the ability to kill Luxon NPCs in the amber mines while possessing robust armour and survivability.

Burst Cancel · May 24, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

FA is going to be inherently imbalanced because Kurzick victory is the default condition; ergo, Kurzicks play to not lose, while Luxons must play to win. The fact that the Kurzicks manage to lose a fair amount anyway due entirely to player incompetence doesn't make the format balanced - it just makes it idiotic.

Now, whether it's imbalanced enough to take out of the map rotation, I won't pretend to know.

aubray1741 · May 24, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

FA will never be balanced. It's impossible to perfectly balance a PvP mode where each team has a different kind of goal.

Kurzicks: Run Amber, defend NPCs/Gunther.
Luxons: Kill Gunther, protect turtles.

Compare FA to every other PvP mode where each team has the SAME goal.

upier · May 24, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Do you guys ever play the opposite side? I lost most of my Kurzick games when we were with more than 2-3 monks in the team. I won most of my luxon games when I and another monk kept our turtle alive and spammed vig. spirit on the warrior npc's. Free knock down is win.

Share with me how does one achieve a 2 monk team in an 8 man random arena?
I've played games with 4 monks. And 0. It's pure dumb luck to get the team you want.
Whereas on the Kurzick side - you don't need luck. You just need to decide to run a monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Luxon Ray is easy to counter, especially if they can't keep their turtles alive. So no, Ray is just bad in FA imo. Ruemere's post above is what luxons should be doing.

And turtles still get stuck when someone Flatbows them from inside the fort.
But yeah, Rumy has some good ideas - but they also show how much one needs to rely on luck, since he mentions healers, necros, mesmers and massive AoE.
Also - one strives to disable the key Kurzick players rather then killing them. A skill or energy denied monk on the Kurzick side is going to be much more useless than a dead one, because a dead guy will rez in an matter of secs with full energy and no DP. Killing someone is really going to be the last case scenario, preferably once Gunthy is close to getting killed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Or by the Luxons playing good. Most of the time, the Kurzicks do play pretty poorly, the reason they win most of the time is because the Luxons play worse, and because they have the advantage.

Get 8 monks on the Kurzick side.
Chain Aegis and cover it up with other prots and spam WoH on recharge.
If that is beatable by a random Luxon team - this means that the Luxons win because they played better.
Like I said - this also means that a team of 8 monks isn't able to counter 8 attacking options when they are only getting harassed by skills that do not require a line of sight.

If that isn't possible - that would mean that Luxons only win because Kurzicks allow them to. And we see that. Each time a person decides to play an offensive character on a side that SHOULD defend - that's when that person relies on luck that someone will do his defensive job.
And that's how you allow Luxons to win.
Even when the Luxons play good. You still need someone's permission to win. And you get from the Kurzick guy that failed with his build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybevenom

heck no. let me guess. you are on the side of luxons who can't get their tactics running.

Actually no.
I used to play Aspy some 6+ hours per day earning some million Luxy/Kurzy faction. (And that's earned, NOT donated faction!)

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Share with me how does one achieve a 2 monk team in an 8 man random arena?

By synching, which was easier on the Luxon side, but because of the zquests a lot of players fill the district(s) now. I wonder if it is the reason why you want FA to be removed from zaishen combat quests?

upier · May 24, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

By synching, which was easier on the Luxon side, but because of the zquests a lot of players fill the district(s) now. I wonder if it is the reason why you want FA to be removed from zaishen combat quests?

Gosh I haven't synced Aspy in years.
Still, do you think that a random arena should only be balanced if one syncs? In my opinion syncing should raise the possibility of wining - not actually create that chance.

HawkofStorms · May 24, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

They already decreased the timers by half and added enchantment removal to the turtles.
What more does Luxons need? Seriously, all the luxons need to do is be offensively oriented and not trickle in 1 person at a time. Unlike AB, FA actually rewards mobbing.

But I do agree that in theory, if the Luxons are terrible and the Kurzicks are terrible, then the Kurzicks will always win just because Luxons actually have to kill stuff, Kurzicks just have to delay.